tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8484964530322163939.post8814330760885019271..comments2023-10-07T05:24:14.956-04:00Comments on Skeptical Observations: Hocus-Pocus about “Magical Thinking”Miles Rindhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8484964530322163939.post-40482765807727103082010-04-28T22:23:20.178-04:002010-04-28T22:23:20.178-04:00It seems that Hutson's point is that we are al...It seems that Hutson's point is that we are all engaged in the same cognitive procedures that give significance to things which lack it. The difference is that the more rational individuals understand that connection to be purely emotional and don't expect it to have some impact on any aspect of reality other than their own emotions.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8484964530322163939.post-34788088349198823642010-01-08T15:49:44.926-05:002010-01-08T15:49:44.926-05:00My understanding is that magic concerns causal mec...My understanding is that magic concerns causal mechanisms, not quantifiability of results. Studies have been done to determine if "praying" for someone sick (and is unaware of the praying) improves their health. The results haven't been promising, but in principle there's no reason why an effect couldn't be measured. If such prayer had a measurable effect, I think it's fair to say it would be "miraculous" insofar as science provides no explanation -- potential or otherwise -- for how my prayer might have an direct causal effect on someone else's health. <br /><br />The plaecbo effect is an excellent example of what I was trying to say, but the deck is stacked if we call it that. Placebos by their nature are <i>not</i> the cause of the effects we can measure; it's the individual's <i>belief</i> that it is that causes the effect. <br /><br />My original point was simply that there is more than one dimension to "magic" and that even if you don't believe in it -- even if you believe that all observed effects can potentially be explained in scientific terms -- it may still have effects because people believe it to be true.rogueregimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747123415617348742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8484964530322163939.post-40993101509421815692010-01-07T22:42:35.773-05:002010-01-07T22:42:35.773-05:00To Sherry: Perhaps Hutson is sloppy in his usage, ...To <b>Sherry</b>: Perhaps Hutson is sloppy in his usage, but I think the more important point is that he is sloppy in his thinking. He doesn't just apply the term "magical thinking" according to an eccentric meaning: he relies on one meaning to apply it in his examples and then on another meaning in the conclusions that he draws from the examples. It's the fallacy of equivocation rather than mere solecism.<br /><br />To <b>Rogueregime</b>: I have trouble with the idea of identifying magic as a "quantifiable, measurable effect" of anything. Isn't it built into the idea of magic that we can't measure or quantify it? Notions like "magic," "miracle," and "supernatural" are all difficult to define because it is not possible to come up with unambiguous illustrations of any of them. <br /><br />To set aside questions of definition and just to take your examples, I am a bit surprised that you chose only cases in which the magical effect that some people attribute to an object and the actual effect of their belief in its magic are entirely distinct. More interesting, I think, are cases in which the two coincide: people's belief in the magical effect of the object actually produces the effect. This is what occurs in cases of suggestion or the placebo effect. <br /><br />For example, I have read that the effects of acupuncture can be obtained without actually sticking needles into people. You just have a practitioner go through the usual patter and touch the subject's skin with something sharp so that they <i>think</i> that they are having needles inserted (on a part of their body that they can't see, of course). I have also seen someone in a video who claimed to have devised magnets that produced the same beneficial effects as acupuncture. I believe both that that man was a charlatan and that his claim may have been perfectly true! <br /><br />I once derived quite sensible benefit from a session of acupuncture, but now that I know that the effect depends on the credulity of the subject, I am not inclined to go back, because I fear that my skeptical attitude will deprive me of the potential benefits. The best satirical representation of this effect that I can think of was a sketch by <i>Monty Python's Flying Circus</i> concerning a magician who erected apartment buildings ("blocks of flats") by conjuring them into existence. People could live safely in them as long as they believed in them, but the buildings started to fall down as soon as a resident had doubts.Miles Rindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8484964530322163939.post-26796614988442693482010-01-05T22:43:14.217-05:002010-01-05T22:43:14.217-05:00Hutson is guilty of sloppy usage.Hutson is guilty of sloppy usage.Sherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16762413065147371710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8484964530322163939.post-71973570718829442452010-01-04T17:25:40.814-05:002010-01-04T17:25:40.814-05:00Continuing your theme of "different ways to l...Continuing your theme of "different ways to look at" something, there are different ways of thinking about magic, three of which concern me here.<br /><br />(1) A quantifiable, measurable effect caused by an <i>object</i>.<br />(2) A quantifiable, measurable effect caused by one's <i>belief</i> that an object is magic.<br />(3) A quantifiable, measurable effect caused by <i>others</i> belief that an object is magic.<br /><br />To take a couple examples: Most of us will agree there is no evidence that ladder cause bad things to happen if you walk under them. But some people <i>do</i> believe it, and their <i>belief</i> it is so changes might change their behavior, causing bad things to happen. You and I may not believe in fairies and trolls. But Icelanders -- some of the most urbane Europeans out there -- take them seriously enough to spend lots of money to build roads around rocks, trees and hills believed to be the homes of such spirits. Some Chinese are willing to spend thousands of dollars to buy cellphone numbers with lots of 8s in them because they are perceived to bring good luck. <br /><br />The point is, if enough people believe something is magic, in the senses (2) and (3) above, it <i>can</i> have causal effects, even if the thing in question has no effects in sense (1). The world was not flat because everyone thought it was flat, but that doesn't deny that everyone's thinking it was flat changed the way people behaved.rogueregimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747123415617348742noreply@blogger.com